BackTuesday, 16 May 2017
Possible cashless welfare card trial for Port Augusta after success in Ceduna
Ali Clarke interviews Sam Johnson, Elise Kline, Allan Suter and Kelly Vincent on ABC Radio Adelaide
Sam Johnson, Port Augusta Mayor
Ali Clarke: It looks like Port Augusta may want to be the second South Australian trial site. There is already Ceduna, but Sam Johnson why do you think this would be good for your city?
Sam Johnson: I guess I’ve had the advantage that a couple of months ago I was given the reports from Ceduna, they’ve had the card now operating for 12 months. I was very grateful and beneficial to get the confidential stats and reports that’s been presented around what they’ve had. I’ve also been over to Ceduna a couple of times, just to have a look at get a feel for it. For me it’s about understanding what it means, so I’m not standing up and saying I’m the world’s biggest supporter of it but I really want to understand what are the pros of it, reading the report there’s certainly been some good outcomes, some not so good outcomes, but I also want to understand the other side of the coin as well and work out maybe where the card hasn’t worked to its full potential.
Ali Clarke: Can you give some examples of why it hasn’t worked?
Sam Johnson: That would be quoting from the report I’ve got which is still confidential I believe, I don’t want to quote those or burn any trust there. Perhaps maybe some other people in Ceduna might want to quote from those, but overall from what I’ve been presented, there’s been some really positive results. The one thing that’s really got my attention is the positive impacts and results it’s had in illicit drug use, that’s probably why I’m walking down this path to explore it more is because in one case there’s been up to about a 70% reduction in Ice usage in the Ceduna community, which is massive. If this is one way we can actually make in-roads to reduction of illicit drugs, particularly amongst our youth, right across regional South Australia and across South Australia as a whole I think it’s worth us exploring that avenue.
Ali Clarke: Have you seen any other regional ramifications of the card system?
Sam Johnson: Certainly here in Port Augusta because Ceduna’s had the card implemented we’ve noticed it, we also run our city safe patrol and a mobile assistance patrol, very similar to Ceduna and we have quite a transient population through the summer months. We notice this summer, and I only met with our city safe patrol two weeks ago and they’ve said in the almost 11 years they’ve been operating, this summer they’ve seen the biggest influx of people, the people that run that program also run it in Ceduna so they know who comes from where there’s been a massive influx of people going from Ceduna to Port Augusta.
Ali Clarke: they’re moving that to dodge having to use this card.
Sam Johnson: Correct.
Ali Clarke: So what is the next step for you and how hard will you push for this?
Sam Johnson: So for us I think the first logical step is to actually look at the pros, let’s look at the cons of this situation. I’m intending to get a motion put towards my council, I stress council’s made no decision on this or not debated it, but I tend to get a motion put up to invite the Mayor of Ceduna to come to Port Augusta he’s more than happy to do that, that’s starts the conversation for us to move forward.
Ali Clarke: thank you very much. Sam Johnson there.
Elise Kline, Lecturer in Development Studies, University of Melbourne
Ali Clarke: Elise Kline, why do you think the cashless debit card actually causes harm?
Elise Kline: I’ve been following the trial in the east Kimberly that was started at the same time as the Ceduna trial our research has shown some really concerning trends with the introduction of the cashless debit card, because it’s compulsorily targeted, so anyone that is getting a payment from the Government, except if you’re getting aged pension or veterans allowance, but any other payment you are included in this program. There is quite a big group of people that are included in that. There’s some very serious ramifications because people are finding it hard to manage their money on the card, it seems to not be getting at the issues that it’s meant to be getting to, targeting people with all the same brush.
Ali Clarke: Some of the statistics we’ve seen from the Government indicates that drug use is down, purchasing of alcohol and gambling is down as well.
Elise Kline: the Government’s numbers also show that 49% of the people on the card reported that it made their lives worse and 20% of the people on the card said it actually made their children’s lives worse. The Government’s research also showed that crime has gone up and there’s questions around the impact on domestic violence. I think the report that the Government put out when it extended the trials had a whole lot of numbers in there that weren’t addressed and the analysis was quite concerning to researchers that have been watching this space. What they need to focus on is the compulsory way in which this card is targeting anyone that’s receiving government benefits, except for aged pension and veterans allowance. We’re talking about carers, we’re talking about youth, people having parenting payments you know all being targeted with the same brush as having some vice, which I think is a real issue. People receiving these benefits are receiving them because they need financial support and having a piece of plastic that’s managing or trying to manage your income is actually making managing people’s finances a bit more difficult is what we’re finding.
Allan Suter, Ceduna Mayor
Ali Clarke: Well Allan Suter, your people have been living with this are you seeing there are serious ramifications, negative ramifications about this card in your area?
Allan Suter: No, look with all due respect to what Professor Kline had to say is largely nonsense. Crime is down and cherry-picking some statistics on a website is quite different to the reality. There was an article in our local paper from the officer in charge of Ceduna Police verifying that crime is down and it is significantly down. The compulsory nature of the card is probably as much our fault as anyone. We insisted that the card system be absolutely non-discriminatory by applying the card to all people then there is no discrimination involved. To be honest the people who do not have a problem with alcohol, drugs or gambling can cope perfectly well with the card because it doesn’t interfere with their lives at all, but the people who are very unhappy about the card are the people who believe that the taxpayers should provide them with funds to purchase alcohol, drugs or gaming products, I’m sorry but we do not accept the so-called research that the professor is quoting.
Back to Elise Kline
Ali Clarke: Well then Dr Elise Kline, I’ll give you a chance to respond to that.
Elise Kline: Oh I’m just quoting the Government’s research, that’s also what the Mayor has in front of him I’m sure as well.
Ali Clarke: So the Government report says that crime has gone up?
Elise Kline: The South Australia and the WA statistics, crime statistics have gone up, yes.
Ali Clarke: And of that you’re saying that there’s 49% of people find that it has worsened their life?
Elise Kline: that’s right.
Back to Allan Suter
Ali Clarke: So back to you then Allan Suter.
Allan Suter: Yes, look the reference to crime, cherry-picked statistics do show that some sections of crime have gone up. For example in one particular instance, for Ceduna the number of incidents has gone from one to two.
So cherry-picked statistics do back up what the professor’s saying, however the overall outcome – and I quote the officer in charge of the Police – they cannot isolate crime statistics to an individual town but as a consequence of the implementation of the card the statistics for the total area that the Police cover on Eyre Peninsula have decreased and this is largely due to significant reductions of crime in Ceduna. I challenge anyone to come to Ceduna, speak to the Police and speak to the local people and then realistically say that crime is dropping, of course people who can’t buy drugs, alcohol and gaming products with their benefits don’t like the card.
That’s what it’s designed to do, I’m sorry but we take the overall good into account, we’ve seen the improvements in the lives of children and families and many of the people who are on the card support it because it has enabled them to manage their money much more effectively with the assistance of the financial services that are available as part of the process. I just cannot accept what the good professor is saying.
Back to Elise Kline
Ali Clarke: Dr Kline, have you been to Ceduna or one of the other test sites in Western Australia?
Elise Kline: Yes of course, I’ve been researching the east Kimberly trial for over a year now that has involved extensive periods of time in the site speaking with many people on the card, people who brought in the card and a lot of community services that support people in the community. So yes my research is very much field based.
Ali Clarke: it should be stressed that there hasn’t been the debate and there will be community consultation certainly before anything is wanted to be rolled out in Port Augusta.
Kelly Vincent, Dignity Party MLC
Ali Clarke: We’re talking about Port Augusta perhaps becoming the second South Australian trial site for the cashless welfare benefit. Should be stressed that there hasn’t been the debate and there will be community consultation certainly before anything isrolled out in Port Augusta – Kelly Vincent, you’ve rung in.
Kelly Vincent: yes, I just wanted to quickly add that I think people are being discriminated against because I’ve heard from my constituents who are on this card purely by the basis of where they live with no history of financial mismanagement themselves now struggling for example to pay a mortgage because their mortgage repayments aren’t linked to the account that the welfare card is linked to. So if that isn’t discrimination based purely on where you live when you have no history of financial mismanagement I don’t know what is. While of course people should be on the card if they are having trouble managing their finances, if there is a history of substance abuse or other issues that they admit they’re struggling with. To purely place this on people when they have no history of financial mismanagement or substance abuse I think is blatant discrimination.
Ali Clarke: Kelly Vincent, thank you. Mary in Normanville says ‘I’m in receipt of a disability pension. I do not drink, smoke, use drugs nor gamble. I manage my money well. If I was forced on to the card system I would be mortified. It is discriminatory to tar everyone with the same brush.’
Back to Allan Suter
Ali Clarke: So back to you, Allan Suter, how do you respond to Mary and I guess Kelly Vincent there?
Allan Suter: Look I respect the opinions, however the reality in the field is totally different. Many of the complaints are generated from a website which has a very small local base and people from all over the country most of whom have never had any experience whatsoever with the card, there’s a barrage of information on that website, much of it is untrue and twisted to suit the argument. The people on the ground in Ceduna tell a much different story. I’m not pretending that everyone likes it, but using the mortgage issue as an example – there is more than adequate facility for people who need to make mortgage payments to make them through the card system. There are substantial resources to help people who have any difficulties, I have found that everyone who has raised a legitimate concern has been assisted and their problems have been overcome. The people whose problems haven’t been overcome whinge in the background and refuse to accept the help that’s available to them.
Ali Clarke: Glen has called
Caller Glen: it’s costing about $10,000 per person to implement this card, you can’t get cash out to pay your rent, Aldi won’t accept the card.
Ali Clarke: let’s take those three points and put it back to Allan Suter, Allan, is it taking $10,000 to actually implement it per person on this card at the moment?
Allan Suter: Look I’m sorry I’m not privy. That’s a question the Government would need to answer.
Ali Clarke: Okay and then what about paying rent from it?
Allan Suter: That is quite easy to do, the only problem that people experience is where there’s a cash rent situation, particularly if it’s a little bit suspicious. If there’s a genuine situation it can be catered through the services that are available. There is a capacity for people to vary the percentage of money that is quarantined if they have a good track record and do not have issues with Police. Most people who experience any form of difficulty can find that that is fixed with a simple phone call and 10 minutes of consultation with the resources that are available to help people.
Ali Clarke: And very quickly, can any store accept this? Glen said for example Aldi won’t accept it, is it funnelling people to certain stores?
Allan Suter: No, it is acceptable at any store that uses credit, debit cards of any nature other than those who sell alcohol, in cases of some of the larger stores they have a separate EFTPOS for the alcohol section and the non-alcohol section. It’s acceptable other than where alcohol is sold.
Ali Clarke: Well we will have to leave it there. Thank you to the Mayor of Port Augusta, Sam Johnson, the next step for them will be happening on Monday night where he puts to council that they need to start debating this further if Port Augusta is to in fact look at taking on the cashless welfare card.
Dr Elise Kline from the University of Melbourne, Ceduna Mayor Allan Suter there and also Kelly Vincent ringing in there, Dignity Party MLC.